Hi Claudio,

<snip>

> Maybe in IB5. But in IB6 the simple alter table/alter column allows one to
> change a field's position.

Sorry for being unclear, i meant IB5.6 here. It's not so long ago that we can
benefit from the nice new IB6/FB1 features, and our production systems are
still on IB5.6 (though not for long now :-)

> > And with all due respect, i don't think
> > it is very constructive for the whole community when the only reaction to
> > this is to focus on one single function that is not implemented the way
> > it is supposed to.
>
> Sir, I work for Firebird, not for IBExpert, IBAdmin, IBWorkbench, QuickDesk,
> etc. It's not about a single function. It may be the only one that fails,
> granted. It's about a mindset of taking shortcuts and go straight to system
> tables when there are alternatives and IBE is only an example. The "most
> expert tool" should use normal DDL while possible, recognizing the engine's
> version (due to missing functionality in IB5) to see if direct manipulation
> is really needed. I'm not saying that it's trivial.

Claudio, i really don't want to fight with you (i think there has been
enough unnecessary, sometimes really childish fighting here these days...)
And i don't work for any of the above product's companies, either.
I work for a very small company and we're just happy to now have a good tool
that i am used to, and it's free so that we can install it on our customer's
machines for service/maintenance. And frankly i (as an engine *user*, not a
developer like you are) don't care *how* the tool does what it does - as long
as it works. However, i fully agree with you that "official" DDL should
be used whenever possible.

> What happens when a tool takes shortcuts: if properly done, nothing.
> Otherwise, the engine is charged with possible bug reports that don't exist
> until the user says after 10 replies for example "no, I didn't use DDL, but
> a wonderful tool X that offered to change the index's ASC/DESC ordering on
> the fly" (I don't know about a real tool that offers this functionality).
> And unfortunately, this is waste of time for volunteers trying to figure
> what's going on, until you realize the engine's methods were bypassed. That
> happened to Craig Stuntz and me and has happened another times. It's not a
> gratuitous attack on IBExpert and my observation about general metadata
> modification is not focused directly on IBExpert either.

Good point, and as said earlier i understand your attitude - but in these
cases, isn't it more the person who *reports* such a problem who is to
blame? Giving incomplete informations about the setup, the engine version,
the access components and/or tools used and then shouting out loud "i found
a bug!" leads to this, wasting everyones time. Had the person tried the same
thing in ISQL or Marathon before, he'd have found out himself it's not the
engine, but the tool. I've had several of these cases (where at first look
i thought i found a bug), and in most of these it turned out that the bug
was neither in the engine nor in the tool(s), but sitting in front of the
machine ;-)

<snip>

> But if something causes a lot of phantom bug reports (whatever tool
> is used, WHATEVER), I'm going to speak again.

I really hope you do. I hope even more that in the meantime we can get
people to first test *different* tools for themselves to reproduce a
possible problem before claiming they found a bug in the engine...

> And remember that regardless how good a tool may be, not all people will
> like it, starting with the interface, following with the license, etc.

my granny used to say "if we all had the same taste, we'd all be lying
in the same bed - imagine the crowd!" and this seems to apply to girls
just as well as database tools :-) - that's why i did not say "look here,
use this tool and nothing else", i just thought it might be worth the
mentioning there is *a* new and free alternative to IBConsole.

pooh...

Could we now all cheer up again, please? The wheather over here is
depressing enough! - in the mean time i'll look for my dictionary to
find out what "Altruism" means <g>, and update my web site (have to remove
the "(dead?)" behind the link to the IBDI ng <vbg>)

regards,
fingerman

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when parsers parse, and compilers compile, then why don't objects object?

fingerbirdy - fingerman's door to Firebird
http://www.fingerbird.de