Hello Frank,

> - just my 0.02$, don't take it too seriously...

Don't worry Frank, that's just me, I say straight out what I think
and that sometimes sounds a bit serious. Well, actually I do believe
that a brand is a very serious thing and if I can influence it for
what I believe is better, then I do it. But you won't see me engage
in longwinded back and fourth email exchanges about these topics.

Concerning the brand, what's really important is how the trademark
firebird will be used by the community. A good logo is an advantage.
The font is in my opinion much less important in the sense that it
can be changed at any time if one should come to the conclusion that
another one would look nicer.

For the moment I've done all the little banners with this Swis721...
font and, well, I like them. From a purely utilitarian point of view
it's the easiest to use this font for the moment, since the graphics
are already made :). And most people seem to like the font too,
except Helen ;)

I don't have the time to continue to create artwork, nor am I
particularly interested in this type of job. I made an effort because
I felt that Firebird needs a better presentation, especially a new
logo distinct from IBPhoenix's. If finally different graphics will be
used than the ones I suggested, that's perfectly ok. I just hope
whoever produces them will do a quality work. I've made the different
graphics with much attention to the detail because I considder this a
matter of professionalism. Being professional is important both for
the quality of the program code and for the marketing / presentation
part.

For an example of unprofessional work, look at the Firebird badges
currently offered somewhere at the site. fancy shapes, non-standard
sizes, photographic elements (fire) combined with a logo, dark
background only, .... They are horrible and it's obvious that no well
done site will ever put such a thing on a page. Well, this is not to
criticize, maybe the one who did them didn't know better. But at
least this shows another problem: It appears that in this open source
community one doesn't say what one thinks. Many must have noticed
that those badges are absolutely useless, but noone sais a word,
preferring to be "polite"...

Now, I gave you an example of what quality graphics look like and if
anyone will produce new ones with different fonts, I hope to see
something of comparable quality. That's the only wish I have: Be
professional!

This isn't a comment about yours, Frank. Where I referred to the case
(size) of your font, I was thinking about absolute size, not relative
to the logo. You used the bigest logo and hence a big title. I
created that big logo for "stand-alone" use without title. In my
opinion it's way too big for a website header.

> thanks for the slap in the face (just kidding :), but
> i personally think the font *should* have some intuitive
> relation to the image and the nature of the product it
> represents...

With the product ok, but not with the logo, at least not necessarily.

> > By the way I just posted yet another graphic, 234 x 60 pixel half
> > banner.
> >
> > I've put a somewhat "political statement" in that banner, I'll
> > comment about that shortly, thanks for your explaining in

response to

> > my "politics" message by the way.
>
> (maybe you could avoid the "evil" word with the (R) by a

description like

> "giving IB wings" :-) heck, i must sound like a marketing guy...)
>

Here you are wrong, Frank. It would be a big error if Firebird would
consider InterBase as an enemy and try to avoid to mention InterBase.
InterBase has a certain user base and the Firebird community must
welcome these users and offer them it's support. InterBase as the
origin of Firebird is therefore worth to be mentioned. There is a
simple and even somewhat natural relationship between InterBase and
Firebird and it's important to communicate this, rather than hide it.

I however agree that the Community should present it's own activities
under the name Firebird, I'll post another message about that later.

> efforts seem to just run into nowhere... :( just giving up on even

hoping for

> any comments. (does this sound frustrated? yes i am. tomorrow's

another day.)

Helen liked your font? Anyways, it isn't all that important this
font. Much more important is that a "Firebird Organization" is
missing. I'll write about that later.

Stay tuned Frank, I'm sure there will be a possibility to contribute!

Best regards
Markus