Absolutly,

But when you are forced to make manual work for whatever reason....

... You do not go out and boast about your productivity. Or any of the other things you just actually eliminated.

Thomas

> -----Original Message-----
> From: firebird-support@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:firebird-support@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Johnson
> Sent: Sonntag, 21. August 2005 19:33
> To: firebird-support@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [firebird-support] Design advice
>
> You are correct that with a well designed middle layer you
> may not need to write any SQL for applications. I am partial
> to Hibernate, myself.
>
> However, there are times where SP's and triggers do make
> sense, and an ORM is an unnecessary or even undesirable layer.
>
> The key is to use the right hammer for the job.
>
>
> On Sat, 2005-08-20 at 21:07 +0200, Thomas Tomiczek wrote:
> > Well, not wanting to go at all into an architecture discussion, but
> > let me tell you tat I am one person thinking your arguments are not
> > well thought out.
> >
> > Let me explain that in the last year and a half, for
> example, I have
> > been writing and architecting a CMS that works against SQL Server,
> > Oracle, MS Access and soon Firebird (Oracle is a LITTLe feature
> > limited at the moment).
> >
> > During this project, which consists of more than 200 tables and
> > roughly 250 or so business classes we have written
> >
> > ZERO
> >
> > Sql at all.
> >
> > There is not a single line of SQL in the whole application.
> Nada. Zero.
> > On top of this (exception: oracle, firebird I am working on
> it) we are
> > not only generating all queries and db operations, but also
> all DDL -
> > database schema creation AND maintenance are fully automated.
> >
> > We only did this because so far we have been able to offset any and
> > all performance issues through the use of a data access
> layer caching
> > mechanism (which, especially when an object loads data from
> multiple
> > tables, can even speed up the whole thing and dake load from the
> > database).
> >
> > On top, the program team spent exactly
> >
> > ZERO
> >
> > Time on maintaining a data access layer, as data access is 100%
> > automated under the object model by means of a middleware (that
> > another team programs, but it is a product).
> >
> > Now,
> >
> > Given that SP's and data access are simply not existing - and thus
> > there is no maintenance issue at all over the whole application, do
> > you not agree that such an approach is way MORE well structure,
> > thought over and consisten (and thouroughly tested) than yours? Oh,
> > performance is more than satisfying.
> >
> > And before we made this middleware, we used a simpler one that hard
> > hardcoded SQL statements - in ONE configuration file. You see, "not
> > using SP's and using dynamic SQL" is by no means identical
> to "being
> > an idiot and scattering your SQL over the whole project".
> There IS a
> > ground for people using what looks like dynamic SQL to the
> database,
> > but using a repository like mechanism (propably with a code
> generator
> > for strong typed usage classes) to centralize SQL code on
> ONE location.
> >
> > Let me add that our fully automated configured data layer allows
> > dynamic queries (strong typed, compile time checking) in a db
> > independent form, and performs a lot of things that most
> programmers
> > do not even dream of (like pretty advanced caching).
> >
> > Good programming is about eliminating unnessary superflous
> layers, not
> > about making up justifications for them.
> >
> > What is the book you talk about, btw.?
> >
> > Thomas Tomiczek
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: firebird-support@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:firebird-support@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> constantijnw
> > > Sent: Samstag, 20. August 2005 20:59
> > > To: firebird-support@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [firebird-support] Design advice
> > >
> > > Helen Borrie wrote:
> > >
> > > > >I'm developing a commercial application that uses Firebird. At
> > > > >the moment I have all my queries coded in stored procedures.
> > > >
> > > > This is extremely unnecessary.
> > > >
> > > Helen, why do people buy your book? I think most do because you
> > > present scattered knowledge about Firebird in a well
> thought over,
> > > structured and consistent way. Also you clarify interdependencies
> > > between pieces of knowledge. It makes your book more
> valuable than
> > > just a bunch of articles.
> > > I prefer using stored procedures for accessing data just for the
> > > same
> > > reason: well thought over, structured, consistent and thorough
> > > tested mature code accessing data, instead of dynamic queries
> > > scattered all over the place in all flavours imaginable.
> > > At first I was also very annoyed about those dependencies, when
> > > changing a table field for instance. But now I find it a big
> > > advantage that I can have I clear picture of what my field change
> > > implies for the other logic used.
> > >
> > >
> > >
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