Hi,

At February 5, 2004, 06:04, Nando Dessena wrote:

> I believe the confusion Chad is talking about might be concrete among
> new users. I experience (and try to cure) this same confusion in new
> users all the time, but can the project recognise there might be
> somethiong to address? If so, can anything be done about it? If so,
> what?

If you do a search on Google or Yahoo, Firebird's official website
appears before IB Phoenix's website. And, I find that the small
descriptions appearing in the search results is clear to distinguish
which is which. But, I'm not saying that the confusion might not be
coming from elsewhere.

H>> and Firebird users are spoiled for choice.

> Yes. And having spoiled users, although for choice, does not strike me
> as wise marketing. :-)

I agree

H>> However, if you are saying that this nice add-on should ship with
H>> the server software, no, it won't happen.

> Would you mind letting the developers discuss and decide? My guess is
> that this will happen, sooner or later. It just needs someone to do
> it. I don't think that many people in the Firebird Project share your
> opinion, judging from past discussions.

H>> This project builds and
H>> maintains an RDBMS, not GUI clients.

> An administrative console is not a "GUI client", it's a GUI version of
> all the command line tools, which are not part of the RDBMS but are
> nonetheless maintained because they serve a need. Some users have the
> need to do just that without using the command line, they need to do
> it primarily on Windows and they need to have the tools out of the
> box. Firebird might decide to support these needs or not. Supporting
> user needs is what gets a product more users, AFAIU.

I have to agree with Nando here. My colleague that does most of the
technical support for our software isn't that comfortable using the
command line tools. And, for that reason we have to be the ones
performing those tasks on our clients' computers, either on location
or remotely. Especially, when most of them just know how to turn on
the computer and use our software, and asking them by phone to use a
command-line tool is just nonsense. True, we could distribute a
freeware GUI console found on IB Phoenix's Contributed list, but
that's beside the point. The point here is that Firebird needs a
rudimentary GUI console like IBOConsole or IB_SQL, that would at least
run on Windows and Linux.

H>> Note, for example, there are several
H>> affliliated open source projects developing GUI clients; just as we have
H>> closely-affiliated projects building and maintaining Java drivers, ODBC
H>> driver, a .NET driver, et al.

> The drivers are somehow more "affiliated" than any GUI client. At leat
> I can donwload a java driver from the Firebird website. I cannot
> doenload a GUI console from there. "You can find everything on the
> IBPhoenix web site", I hear you say. Then tell me why new users are
> confusing Firebird and IBPhoenix...

I think this is mainly where the confusion comes in, between both
websites. Firebird's website should have a similar list or a direct
link to that lists.

>>>So right now basically users have to go 3P if they want to use FB at all -
>>>not just for more powerful features.

H>> Nonsense. Get the OpsGuide for IB6 and learn how to use the command-line
H>> tools. Most of them have a console shell for interactive use - including
H>> isql. Or, if that's really TOO much like hard work, read the releasenotes
H>> and get you a GUI.

> I'll let the readers judge which of these paragraphs is more nonsense.
> :-) I think you've been into IB/Fb for too much time to understand the
> perspective of a new user.

Just an added note. Not all new programmers have used or seen the
command-line. For those new users, it is foreign territory.

H>> If you want to raise matters with the project administrators, send email to
H>> firebirds@.... If you want a wider audience, subscribe
H>> to firebird-general@yahoogroups.com...and so on. The rest you can read for
H>> yourself.

> Yes, firebird-general might be a more appropriate area for such
> discussions. But I think Chad's feedback and concerns have been
> expressed quite clearly already for anyone to consider them.

I've also posted this message on Firebird-general to continue
discussion there, if someone wants to continue it. I think it's worth
talking about it and get the feel of what people think. Chad is not
the first user to bring up this discussion and probably not the last.

This was my 2 extra cents.

--
Best regards,
Daniel Rail
Senior System Engineer
ACCRA Group Inc. (www.accra.ca)
ACCRA Med Software Inc. (www.filopto.com)