The issues you mention are quite important, of course.

For me, Open Source is at its best when it is used as a cooperative way of
producing tools that help businesses and independent developers to run their
commercial activities more efficiently. A of improving productivity at lower
costs.

Sponsoring is very important, either by contributing directly with cash or
by paying developers to contribute with development effort.

The Apache project is the best and most successful example I know of this
kind of commercial oriented Open Source development, with participation
and/or sponsoring from IBM, Sun, Collabnet, Oracle, etc.


I really think that you all should try to learn from this example, so I
am going to drop some more details and pointers, so that you can have a
clue on the real dimension and organization of the Apache project...


Maybe you are not aware that Apache produces much much more than its
famous web server. To have a glance at a very raw "list" of _most_ of the
projects, take a look at:
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/

For more detailed information, take a look at these pages:
http://apache.org/foundation/projects.html

And especially the blue tables at
http://apache.org/foundation/projects.html#jakarta
http://apache.org/foundation/projects.html#xml
But these last lists are outdated and you better look at:
http://jakarta.apache.org/
and
http://xml.apache.org/

There are still a few projects out of these lists, some because they are
too new and because they are sub-sub-projects, which as more to do with
their evolution than with their dimension/usefulness, like:
http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/index.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/index.html
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/index.html


All this as administrative/legal/infrastructure support from a
foundation:
http://apache.org/foundation/


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jason Wharton [mailto:jwharton@...]
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:35 PM
> To: IBDI@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [IBDI] Re: (and a Jason rant on "free beer" again)
>
>
> What I said about my country regarding its currently strong
> software economy
> (meaning lots of money is actually spent on the stuff here) and the Open
> Source movement WERE and ARE entirely appropriate for a forum dedicated to
> the discussion of all things which surround the InterBase Developers
> Initiative. The economics of our industry are of paramount
> concern to me. I
> certainly wasn't trying to start a pissing contest with anyone.
>
> What I said was leveled against the "free beer" software CONCEPT (most
> especially the virulent kind with hooks in them for some future ploy), not
> the concept of having sources 100% in the open. I'm not picking on any
> certain license, mostly because I haven't scrutinized all of them in great
> detail. I'm throwing out concepts and letting you pair that with your own
> knowledge and then you be the judge of how it applies to the
> license schemes
> you know. So "get your zipper up" and your "thinking cap on" and
> contribute
> to this discussion or mind your own business.
>
> AFAICS, the most critical and threatening thing to Firebird is
> the fact that
> many if not most of those working on it are starving for funds and their
> hands are greatly tied because of it (unless they don't mind living in
> poverty). Even though it isn't a lot, maybe a few months rent, some
> groceries and a couple of car payments or something, I still
> contribute what
> little funds I can to sponsor things.
>
> I think everyone of us who benefits from Firebird should willingly find a
> way to do the same in their own way. Especially if there are some
> of you out
> there who are incorporating Firebird into your companies and saving
> thousands because of it. Become a corporate sponsor or something
> like that,
> I don't know... This is simple economics we are dealing with here
> folks. If
> everyone gives a little, we all receive a lot in return. We all give none,
> we ultimately receive none.
>
> With regard to InterBase vs. Firebird being a priority on this list. I
> actually feel like the Firebird people care and listen to what is
> happening
> here and are more involved. The InterBase people are in their own
> world for
> the most part and are doing their own thing regardless of what
> the IBDI says
> or collectively does. Thus, I personally am pro-Firebird biased on this
> list. A privilege I now enjoy having resigned from my post as IBDI
> co-founder. Not to imply I have any disdain for Borland.
>
> I suppose I'm just on a perpetual rant these days...
>
> (Paulo, I know you meant well, please don't be offended at my reaction.)
>
> Regards,
> Jason Wharton
> CPS - Mesa AZ
> http://www.ibobjects.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paulo Gaspar" <Paulo.Gaspar@...>
> To: <IBDI@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:13 AM
> Subject: RE: [IBDI] Re: (and a Jason rant on "free beer" again)
>
>
> > Jason,
> >
> > List founder or not, politics are off topic and this still is not
> > an USA-only list. Being a founder you (should) be an example.
> >
> > When you mean GPL, please say GPL, don't say Open Source.
> >
> >
> > About national attitudes, just some perspective:
> >
> > <off-topic>
> > About America contributions to the world, there are a lot of good
> > ones and a lot of bad ones. And the result of a balance is at
> > least questionable enough to deserve some reserve.
> >
> > Since you are into history, I advise you to try to study it beyond
> > what is in the primary school books as I did with the history of
> > my own country.
> >
> > In the primary school books I studied all was great and perfect,
> > but when going trough other sources the balance is much more
> > questionable.
> >
> > I am sure you will be able to cover the history of your country
> > even much better, since it all is so much shorter and recent than
> > mine's.
> >
> > If you think that one can not compare Portugal's influence to the
> > one of the USA, maybe you should get some perspective: although
> > Portugal is a very small country, there was a time when its impact
> > over the world was immense. The marks (both good and bad) are
> > still there to see (if you know enough to recognize them) and
> > cover most of the globe.
> >
> > A small example: the navigation techniques used to discover
> > America were perfectioned by the Portuguese.
> >
> > There is also not so anecdotic evidence that the existence of the
> > continent might be a well kept Portuguese secret even before
> > Columbus went there. This and the similar Australia case are
> > controversial, but the famous "Secret Portuguese Maps" are often
> > mentioned even in fiction (e.g.: "Shogun").
> >
> > Many other countries represented in this list have an history of
> > greatness and of enormous contributions to the cultural political
> > and technological evolution of the world. Many other countries
> > had their turn and left a mark.
> >
> > However, all of them are much less influent today that they were
> > before. Some don't even exist anymore (consider the Inca people).
> >
> > (Did you know that Inca constructions resisted very well to
> > earthquakes?)
> >
> >
> > Just from the top of my mind:
> > - Greece: wide Mediterranean influence, mathematics, philosophy,
> > navigation techniques, architecture, etc.
> > - Italy: the Roman empire, the roman alphabet we are using,
> > navigation techniques (the Latin sail?), architecture (the
> > use of the arch in bridges and buildings), etc.
> > - Arabic countries: besides a much larger geopolitical influence,
> > literature, architecture (the use of the vault) and
> > mathematics. The Arabic numeration we still use is the base
> > of the evolution of Arithmetic and Mathematics - example:
> > dividing two numbers was almost impossible before.
> >
> > And I could go on with some which influence is still more
> > visible, like the UK, Spain, France, etc.
> >
> > All this countries and some others I did not mention had
> > sometime in history a huge geopolitical influence and developed
> > technologies that are the foundation of things we now take for
> > granted. However, some of them look quite small and meaningless
> > now when compared with the USA.
> >
> > Some great empires lasted for centuries, some just a few years,
> > but looking back at those histories, it sure looks like THAT
> > kind of greatness was a temporary situation. And a general
> > attitude of arrogance was the beginning of the end for most of
> > them.
> >
> > History also shows:
> > - Respect your neighbors and then just _maybe_ they will
> > respect you.
> > - Try to rule your neighbors and then it is _sure_ they will
> > kick back.
> >
> > The world got small and we are all neighbors today.
> > </off-topic>
> >
> >
> > Have fun,
> > Paulo
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jason Wharton [mailto:jwharton@...]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:58 PM
> > > To: IBDI@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [IBDI] Re: (and a Jason rant on "free beer" again)
> > >
> > >
> > > Just to clarify a few things:
> > >
> > > I am fully aware that probably MOST of the subscribers here are
> > > international folk. I wrote much of what I did with that in mind.
> > >
> > > I didn't intend to convey the notion that America does no
> wrong and I am
> > > sensitive to the gross injustices of our aristocrats, political and
> > > otherwise. I was not alluding to any current political scene but
> > > the entire
> > > history of our country. I'm not much into politics, just history.
> > > In the big
> > > picture of things, I think America in general has been a useful
> > > contributor
> > > to the global well being of our planet. I believe it
> continues to be so
> > > today. If you disagree, I can handle that and would be glad to
> > > consider your
> > > opinions in private. I did not intend to spark off a big
> > > political war here.
> > >
> > > As for my rant regarding "free beer" related stuff. I clearly
> stated the
> > > principles my complaint was based on and simply stated I saw some
> > > things in
> > > the big picture I felt could go awry if we are not more forward
> thinking.
> > > Free is just all too seductive to schmooze into without any
> > > thought. I used
> > > GPL's virulent nature as an example only. I have only asked that
> > > my remarks
> > > be considered food for thought.
> > >
> > > I support full source availability and open collaborative
> > > development 100%.
> > > I just don't like to see force and control tactics used to any
> > > degree in the
> > > process of encouraging that. Nor do I like to see concepts and
> > > tactics used
> > > that are harmful to our industry's economy. That is the gist of
> > > my point and
> > > I am sure it is valid food for thought. This is also why you
> will notice
> I
> > > am one of the sponsors of bug fixes and enhancements to Firebird. I've
> got
> > > more things I want to sponsor as well and will gladly do so as I am
> able.
> > >
> > > What happened with InterBase is a VERY valid use for OS. Borland
> > > had decided
> > > to kill it off and so opening the sources was a commendable and
> > > responsible
> > > thing to do. I have no bones with Firebird, other than I know it will
> > > struggle and suffer for lack of a financial footing. Even if
> Firebird is
> > > unable to thrive, it gave us an opportunity as a community to put some
> > > finishing touches on the IB6 code and have something very usable.
> > >
> > > Also, if there are those of you who think I should act more conforming
> and
> > > tread more lightly with my opinions and comments, let me just
> tell you a
> > > little more about my nature. I'd rather say something to
> one's face and
> be
> > > corrected on the spot if such was needed than harbor some ill
> > > misconception
> > > and never have it challenged. If I'm wrong about anything
> here, I trust
> > > people are going to correct me and I welcome it. Life is too
> short to go
> > > through it with blinders on fearing this or that. Truth, nothing less
> will
> > > do.
> > >
> > > Perhaps I'm taking some liberties here since I co-started the IBDI and
> > > filled a significant role in influencing things so we could even have
> the
> > > opportunity to continue using the InterBase technology as we
> > > are... If you
> > > think that's wrong of me to do, my apologies.
> > >
> > > FWIW,
> > > Jason Wharton
> > > CPS - Mesa AZ
> > > http://www.ibobjects.com
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Paulo Gaspar" <Paulo.Gaspar@...>
> > > To: <IBDI@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 3:05 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [IBDI] Re: About IBX and Firebird (and a Jason rant on
> "free
> > > beer" again)
> > >
> > >
> > > > Jason,
> > > >
> > > > 1 - This is NOT an USA-only software forum;
> > > >
> > > > 2 - You should get better informed on how Open Source works, which
> > > > includes getting aware that Open Source is NOT a sinonym to GPL.
> > > > You just have to consider Apache, where there are several
> > > > projects sponsored (with commiters paid) by companies like Sun,
> > > > IBM, etc. and its resulting software being used in commercial
> > > > products from IBM, Sun, Borland, Oracle, etc.
> > > >
> > > > 3 - You should get better informed on potitics. CNN and NBC are not
> > > > that good at providing you with the full picture you know? I
> > > > would advise you to follow the news at these sites:
> > > > http://news.bbc.co.uk
> > > > http://www.iht.com/
> > > > http://www.nytimes.com/
> > > > and even some others at:
> > > > http://www.newsisfree.com/?page=1
> > > >
> > > > (Did you noticed that I included I couple of American
> > > > publications?)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Have fun,
> > > > Paulo Gaspar
>
>
>
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