Claudio, are you aware that I was responding to this line, not writing it?

> > > And now we have the holier-than-thou snooty remark from Helen:

Cheers
Adam

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudio Valderrama C." <cvalde@...>
To: <IBDI@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: [IBDI] Re: Some remarks about some things.....


> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Adam Clarke [mailto:Adam.Clarke@...]
> > Sent: Viernes 11 de Mayo de 2001 9:58
> >
> > > And now we have the holier-than-thou snooty remark from Helen:
> >
> > Helen,
> >
> > <Insert meaningful glance>
> >
> > Cheers
> > Adam (not happy)
>
> I won't insist in this thread since we don't need to discuss it for
another
> full month. The IBDI list was born from the previous SaveInterbase list.
As
> more topics needed special attention, new lists were spawned in a natural
> way: IB-Marketing (almost abandoned after July 2000), IB-Architect,
> IBDH-Translators, IB-Priorities (in a good extent superseded by the FB
lists
> at SF), IB_Designer (it lost strength after July 2000) and the like.
>
> This list is for discussing general IB/FB topics. Once a topic has spawned
> weeks and it uses almost all bandwith of the list, it deserves its
separated
> repository. This list is for general information. If we keep it flooded
with
> specific but very long issues, people interested in general notifications
> will use the unsub email address to abandon this list. On the contrary,
> people that think the new topic is worth the time will join naturally the
> new list. The dedicated list can live two months or half a year, but if it
> carries 80 msgs per days, it's better to have it separate.
>
> I was going to follow the unsub link from this list, too, because I got
> bored and sick of the endless crap about the supposed bad quality of
> everything that's been done to date since more than a year ago and the
> nitpicking surrounding 3 millimeters more at the right of the web page,
etc.
> It's always easier to criticize everything than to contribute something
> useful. Specially easier when we face arrogant newcomers, eager to be
> appointed the undisputed leaders. It's always easier to offend others,
> because you just write and don't care to review what you wrote. This is a
> community. People should be able to post here without the fear to be
called
> incompetent, useless, ignorant, etc., just because they disagree on a
logo's
> color, size and position, for example. It's always easier to rule the
others
> because in this way, there's no competition and if there's competition,
> those people can be called inepts and unprofessional and they can be
hushed.
> This is not the way a community works. The IB/FB community is so small but
> diverse that making artificial separation is a disaster. A proposition was
> made two weeks ago to clearly differentiate IB people from FB people.
Thanks
> to God, it failed. Also, when I'm a newcomer to some tech group, I find
hard
> to make strong assertions without really knowing what I'm writing about or
> without any historical perspective.
>
> We have been visited by a person that seems in urgent need for dedicated
> care in a psychiatric hospital and maybe a small poor country where that
> person could become a dictator in short period. Just review past postings
> and you'll locate easily contradictory statements from the same person,
for
> example:
> - Pavel's site is unprofessional and ugly.
> - We don't need a professional looking site.
> - We need a static site, no bells and whistles.
> - The layout should be fine, the logo here, the font there, etc.
> - We need an easy way for several people to contribute to the site.
> - We don't need such crap like Zope and PhpNuke (and if I don't know about
> them I don't care) even if they help collaboration from multiple people.
> (Don't make silly propositions, I'm the king here, you're an ignorant.)
> - The proposed Damian's site is crap because it's unprofessional. (Hey, if
> you are contributing something for free, I will squash you because you're
> useless and I will repeat you make pure crap 1000 times even if you don't
> ask me.)
> - I don't want to impose anything but don't touch my logos in any way (I'm
> perfect, if you don't agree you're idiots that cannot understand my
> perfection).
> - I'm only with you a few days (but I have time to start and foster a
flame
> war for 3 weeks).
>
> Enough for me. There are much more (and better) examples. Maybe everybody
> (that person included) wants to help sincerely, but throwing crap over all
> the people that disagree doesn't seem to be the best way. Throwing
> provocative ideas is not the problem. They are needed to fuel discussion
> sometimes. So I won't feel bad with such postings. However, dismissing and
> calling crap everything not from oneself accounts for a "very special"
> personality that may be responsible for community disintegration in the
long
> term, since people take sides and strong sides. Or do we need another
flame
> war in the style of Borland v/s FB after July 2000? I think that most
> readers are sick of those issues. People are welcome to complain about
> things that are bad or wrong, but there's a limit between tagging stinking
> issues as unacceptable (as they should be, probably) and simply offending
> people with metodological patience.
>
> About moderation: being Helen the moderator, I remember that the readers
> themselves shutdown a conversation here between Helen and a person
(Maureen
> O'Gara was the name?) that wrote an article about firebird, the IB fork,
> etc. People complained and Helen had to stop the public dispute over the
> contents of the article. The moderator was moderated by the public.
> Moderation is the last step after a person has been warned. Banning or
some
> partial restriction follows. If you think something is not adequate, just
> reply and explain, no need to offend a third of the members that reply to
> your post. One thing is being hypocrite (all is good, dear sir); not
needed.
> Another thing is to be utmost arrogant, cynical and offensive; this is
just
> lack of common sense, basic education and politeness. Don't go to
extremes.
> In Spanish, there's a saying: "to be courteous doesn't imply to be
coward".
>
> While I can't say I put Marcus on my black list or that I hate him, I
> simply stopped paying attention to his emails since they carried the seed
> for more strong replies. Anger leads to anger. We react the same way or
> worse when we are slapped. Now, going on personal answers, I'm very
> surprised that you Adam seem to agree that the best way to push topics is
> the offensive way. If I were to make my next post a practice of a lesson
on
> scatological English slang just to insult you, how would you feel?
Pleased?
> Happy? Would you thank me sincerely? Would you put me in your list of most
> appreciated friends? Come on, even HW devices have sensors for out of
range
> parameters and to take measures. A conversation that gets stronger and
> stronger over time does nobody a favor. I stopped my 3 years participation
> on the Mers list just because saying "I don't agree with Borland" seemed
> enough to be kicked from the list. On the other hand, if I offend 30% of
the
> readers (Rob included) with really nasty words and accusations, I will be
> surprised if he doesn't kick me. There's always a threshold for the level
of
> a conversation, above that, measures should be taken to reestablish peace.
I
> don't expect all people to agree with the measures, just because we have
our
> basic right to disagree. Just as I disagreed with Rob's practices and
others
> were very pleased and thanked him. That's the world.
>
> Let's enjoy our natural right to disagreement, but let's exercise it with
> common sense, please. I'm utterly sick of self-appointed gurus that come
to
> offer us the salvation for our project. (Just send those pseudo-gurus to
try
> to tell Borland how to behave and see what answer they get. <g>) As an
> active member of the firebird developers group, I will consider very
> carefully each proposition that comes from the marketing side. Now, back
to
> coding mode.
>
> C.
> ---------
> Claudio Valderrama C.
> Ingeniero en Informática - Consultor independiente
> http://www.cvalde.com - http://firebird.sourceforge.net
>
>
> Community email addresses:
> Post message: IBDI@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe: IBDI-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe: IBDI-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner: IBDI-owner@yahoogroups.com
>
> Shortcut URL to this page:
> http://www.yahoogroups.com/community/IBDI
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>