Hi,

Maybe we're voting on the name sort of, I like firebird over firebirdsql
even though that is our domain name now.

I see/hear firebird, I associate it with marcus' excellent logo, with the
muscle car, with Stravinsky, with the long history/mythology of the
firebird, and I remember the database.

I see/hear firebirdsql, I think, hmmm thats some company name thought up by
a committee.

Marcus and Helen, let me put my $0.02 in here, I hope you will take it in
the constructive helpful spirit I am trying to offer it in.

Please take a step back and a deep breath. I am convinced you both want
the best future for firebird(sql) possible. Right? So why do you keep
getting on each others nerves? I don't think it is intentional. I think
you are each concentrating on different pieces of the big picture, and
letting verbal quirks of each other's responses annoy you. These kind of
communication challenges happen all the time, there are books and books
about how to overcome them in business contexts, .......

It looks to me as if Helen is to a large extent past- oriented, and
supplying a "this won't work because x" point of view, to which I
personally sympathise since it is about my favorite activity. These are
both essential, unquestionably, right? We are here out of our past, and
its certainly better to know problems before you jump in than after.

Marcus seems to me to be very future oriented, and having more of a "lets
do this, its a great idea, it will work out fine" attitude. ( I notice I
have a hard time writing this without putting in "there are no problems we
can't solve"--showing my problem orientation) Well we need this too,
planning our bright future is wonderful, this gets our enthusiasm up, plans
tend to make things happen.

So, Markus, when Helen says, "your idea won't work for reasons x, y, and z,
and here's the historical context", this is really valuable information.
It may not include " and so we should do B instead", but you are good at
figuring out B; make another suggestion: that is a different role, everyone
has something different to contribute.

And Helen, when Marcus says "Lets do A, (even though we've never done
something like it before,) its easy, it would be great", indeed he is
proposing a bright strong future for firebird. Since he is looking to the
future, it may be difficult for him to see the contributions in the past
and present and the context in which we now are. But certainly we all want
that good future, talking about it seems like a good idea, with plans we
are more likely to get there.

I also get the impression, although I cannot quote examples, that there may
be a subtle language barrier here. I have gotten the impression that
Markus's original language may be German (despite his excellent English,
better I think than mine, and I do not mean to be insulting anyone), and I
think there is a slight tendency for phrases that are friendly mild
suggestions of possible courses of action in German when moved to English
to come off as direct forceful commands that must be followed immediately.
( I exagerate). Maybe this has a grain of truth?


So I'm sure I've written way too much, I hope we all agree we want the best
for firebird and differ only on some details.


Thanks for your patience

david jencks

On 2001.04.27 07:18:10 -0400 markus.soell@... wrote:
> Helen,
>
> > Firebird has been *the* name associated with open-source dev.
> > of "that database" all along. All of the existing application
> > developers know it and - at present, dear friends, they are the
> > supporters and customers of the "brand association". The
> > Sourceforge admins know it. The online journos know it.
>
> Yes. But Firebird wasn't the name of the product. Firebird was the
> name of the development unit of the community. Therefore Firebird has
> not been used as a brand, a trademark so far. In any case, since a
> 1.0 build hasn't been released yet, it hasn't been used widely and it
> hasn't been promoted. Also, adding the three letters SQL at the end
> is a minor change, for good reasons, which I mentioned.
>
> >
> > Firebird will change its name if enough of the ***Firebird***
> people want it to.
> >
>
> Exactly. And to know if maybe many Firebird people agree with my
> opinion. All the suggestions I make are what I believe in the very
> best interest of Firebird and I think suggestions, at least
> constructive ones, should be allowed.
>
> I did not more than point out what would be a good thing to do, and
> asked for your opinion. Isn't that the normal way to do?
>
> > All this "will" and "must" and "should" is getting irritating.
>
> Why? All these things are about topics that matter for the future of
> Firebird and hence should be welcome?
>
> >Could this thread be permitted to be a forum of ideas and views on
> >those ideas, instead of a soapbox where one loud voice wants to
> >shout down all the rest? Past experience has shown that this
> >community gets good results from concensus about a good idea. It is
> >not a mass of dunderheads needing a daily hammering to get a point.
>
> Shout down all the rest? Helen, please... I asked the question and
> dared even to give a reply to the position of Ann. Is this shouting
> down the rest?
>
> At least as far as you are concerned, Helen, there's no way to shout
> you down, because since I visit this forum I didn't read a single
> constructive and future-oriented contribution from your part. You
> explained well the historics though, thanks for that. But you do not
> seem willing to engage in discussion about real topics, things that
> matter and that, by all evidence, require decisions.
>
> Take this thread just for an example: I suggest something, with 3
> good reasons why I think it would be good. Does your reply contain
> any intelligent contribution to the topic? Ann's did, even if I don't
> agree with her. But yours doesn't. You seem to receive much respect
> from other members of this group, but what you have demonstrated to
> me until now, well, was in any case not forward looking and
> constructive and that's what Firebird needs. Firebird will evolve
> through topic oriented, constructive discussion and not just from
> people being nice with each other.
>
> >
> > If you please...
> >
> > Helen
> >
>
> If _YOU_ please...
> Markus
>
>
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