From NewsServer: discuss.softvelocity.com
News Group: comp.lang.clarion
Response from Bruce Johnson CapeSoft http://www.capesoft.com

Hi Jack,

thanks for the information. A couple of clarrifications please (and
thoughts of my own...)

"Jack T." <71045.3122_No_Spam_Here@...> wrote in message
news:A921.1080824997.15708@......

> I've been playing detective and have not found anything that posts SQL
> statements to a file to enable a roll forward ....

> It appears to come in
> well ahead of TPS in almost any case, and ahead of MSDE in most, but not

all

> situations.

As a _transitional_ step between TPS and SQL though it may provide a crucial
link though. It's certainly no worse than TPS when specifically discussing
the logging feature.

> The ability to step between embedded demo and mission critical
> client server using the same database does not seem reasonable based on

what

> I know so far.

we're talking specifically the missing log-file right? Or are there other
issues as well?

> These reasons are the source of my reticence to commit to
> Firebird after spending considerable time working with and testing it.

I'm

> not an expert in Firebird now by any means. However, the fact that it has
> been so difficult to find a straight answer on LOG files, something

required

> for any mission critical app, indicates that there really is not much
> experience out here.

Taking a step back for the moment (remembering that none of the flat file
systems I'm aware of have logging <g>) is this as important as first
appears - or more a case of the first "missing" feature to be identified
(when comparing to ASA)? I'm not trying to minimise the importance of the
feature - merely trying to assertain how important this might be in a more
"general" situation.

Can you consider a hypothetical situation for me please?
a) Consider a situation where all file updates are done via a program (ie
the database "belongs" to the program), and ad-hoc updates are either not
allowed, or strictly controlled.

b) Take into account also that because the program uses Replicate log files
are being created by the Clarion program anyway (and these can be used after
a Data Restore to roll-forward changes made since the backup)

Would you say this lack-of-log-file in such an environment is "less
crucial"?

> If people are still as hot on Firebird as ever, then it may be a good
> business decision. However, I do not see Firebird reducing the market for
> FM3 support for ASA for the reasons cited. I simply see Firebird as an
> additional revenue opportunity that will probably be a little less than
> anticipated, but perhaps worthwhile nonetheless.

Obviously we'll end up supporting both ASA and Firebird in the long run, so
I'm not too concerned from an FM3 point of view. My main question here
revolves around my personal need to select a "free" db for my TNA
application. Since I can generate side-by-side versions of the app -
compiled for different databases, supporting Firebird doesn't mean I can't
make an ASA version if the client prefers, and vice-versa. (I'm already
generating TPS, MySQL and MsSQL versions - albeit that we haven't released
(for non-technical reasons) either SQL version for general use.

Cheers
Bruce



-----Original Message-----
From: Johan van Zyl [mailto:johan@...]
Sent: 01 April 2004 16:26
To: firebird-support@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [firebird-support] Firebird/ASA/Clarion

>I think demand, and interest, has shown that it's necessary.<

Before you commit too heavily for something that people might back away
from, I think people need to be apprised of a few of my findings that I'm
sure will come out shortly anyway.

I've been playing detective and have not found anything that posts SQL
statements to a file to enable a roll forward even though there is a
vendor
out there that say that he can do that. He relies on you running a
command
line process that moves captured statements to a file. This is not
something that captures statements to an external log file when the
transaction is committed. Furthermore, it is user based, not cheap, and
not
free to distribute. If it turns out that you need pay-for tools at the
user
site, then it is not much, if any cheaper than ASA, and may be more
costly,
all things considered.

There are more problems than hardware problems that happen in production
environments. There are the "I had a woopsy. I shouldn't have purged all
of those records. Can you get them back for me?"
- The ASA answer: "Yes but it's going to cost you. I'll think of
something."
- The Firebird answer: "Yes, but could you help me out by going around
and
ask everyone if it is OK to lose everything that occurred since "sometime"
in the middle of third shift last night. Would you like me to idle our
automotive supplier manufacturing facility and its 350 users right now for
you? BTW, when you are finished and let me know what you want to do, tell
GM that they're going to get an extended lunch break tomorrow at their
Arlington Assembly plant while we airfreight parts to them."<G>

People could counter with, "Hey just run the log file maker a lot.
Besides,
you could run it after the fact with the mass delete, and still get the
rows
back". You'd be right, but for me this stirs thoughts of a famouse Disney
character, and breeds low confidence.

Currently, in my mind, Firebird cannot be positioned alongside of ASA,
since
it would be irresponsible to deploy it in a mission-critical role, at
least
until I was convinced of a solid logging solution. It appears to come in
well ahead of TPS in almost any case, and ahead of MSDE in most, but not
all
situations. The ability to step between embedded demo and mission
critical
client server using the same database does not seem reasonable based on
what
I know so far. These reasons are the source of my reticence to commit to
Firebird after spending considerable time working with and testing it.
I'm
not an expert in Firebird now by any means. However, the fact that it has
been so difficult to find a straight answer on LOG files, something
required
for any mission critical app, indicates that there really is not much
experience out here.

If people are still as hot on Firebird as ever, then it may be a good
business decision. However, I do not see Firebird reducing the market for
FM3 support for ASA for the reasons cited. I simply see Firebird as an
additional revenue opportunity that will probably be a little less than
anticipated, but perhaps worthwhile nonetheless.

Regards,
Jack T.



JVZ Systems CC Customised Software - When it needs
to fit like a glove

Johan van Zyl
Owner JVZ Systems CC
PO Box 3469
Somerset West
7129
johan@... http://www.jvz.co.za tel:
fax:
mobile: +27 21 851 7205
+27 21 852 2387
082 875 4238




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