Reed,

Of course you many good points, but please don't forget to consider the
problem from other's perspectives, particularly newcomers to the project.

Just because you understand where to go to get information about Firebird
and just how Firebird and Interbase are related and just how all the sites
in the Firebird/Interbase sphere relate, doesn't mean that a newcomer will.

Now I make an assumption here, that those contributing to Firebird have an
interest in gaining new users. I certainly see benefits from this. More
testers, more platforms, more feedback, more potential new coders, more
'word of mouth' marketeers (the only kind I like).

I also make another assumption, that the way I evaluate the potential of an
Open Source product is similar to others.
Here's what I do.

-I go to the website, I expect to find IT (not them) up to date and
informative (no frills like the one Marcus has knocked up is a winner).

-I expect to get a summary of what the product does and how it adds value
over similar products.

-I expect to find a little history and some information about those
involved.

-I expect to find a 'getting started' section so that I'm not drowning in
new information. (eg How to use if from Delphi, Kylix, VB, Perl, PHP etc)

-I look at how often the code is being updated.

-I look for an active community of both developers and users.

-I look for cohesiveness. (This is by no means the least, only last).

Because there is no monetary cost to consider, these become the important
properties of the project. They help to tell me how much effort (currency) I
should spend finding out about and using this thing

If I don't find these things then I get nervous. I have internal questions
which make me doubt that this is worth pursuing...

-Are there only a couple of people using this?

-Do the developers all hate each other (there seems to be half a dozen
sites)?

-Is there going to be (another) code split?

-Perhaps I'd be better off spending my energies elsewhere?

So while I understand and support your view of how the Developers of
Firebird should organize themselves, I think that Marcus is more focused on
how the Firebird community organizes the experience of a newcomer.

I have tried to explain why I think that this is important to me and
hopefully to those who actually cut the new Firebird code (to whom I am very
grateful).

Cheers
Adam

----- Original Message -----
From: "reed mideke" <rfm@...>
Newsgroups: egroups.ibdi
To: <IBDI@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2001 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: [IBDI] Re: web site stuff


> markus.soell@... wrote:
> >
> > Helen,
> >
> > --- In IBDI@y..., Helen Borrie <helebor@d...> wrote:
> > > No matter how many websites there are or whether they are red,
> > > yellow or sky-blue-scarlet, we can't release a product until the
> > > QA is done.
> >
> > I would put this the other way round:
> >
> > Firebird shall not release its product (even if the QA is done) as
> > long as there isn't an acceptably looking Firebird website.
> >
> No. First of all, the firebird developers decide when to
> release. Secondly, the web site is irrelevant. The release exists
> for the benefit of it's users. Not to 'promote a brand' or
> to get publicity, or to look good, or anything else. It should
> (and, unless I'm sorely mistaken, will) be released when it is
> ready. No sooner, not later, without regard to any other factors.
>
> > The success of a product depends on how it is perceived in public.
>
> Not significantly. The success of an open source project depends
> primarily on it's usefulness to it's community. Look... linux, perl,
> apache, and most other open source projects appeared without any
> marketing until long after they were already wide spread. Even now,
> does the linux kernel have a web site, never mind one that
> meets your peculiar criteria ?
>
> > For the moment Firebird is new and doesn't have a reputation to
> > produce quality products. That's why a professional presentation of
> > the community will contribute a lot to the success. And the first
> > impression is the most important!
> >
> No. A professional piece of software is the only thing that
> will seriously help our reputation. A useful, accessible web site
> will help, but it is not required. If our product is a million
> times better than the alternative, then it will be well received.
> If our web site is a million times better, but our product
> is still crap, we will still have a reputation for producing
> crap.
>
> [...]
> > job in coding, QA, support etc. and not try to impress peoples with
> > a "stunning" website. Such a website would be contra-productive.
> >
> I agree.
>
> > On the other hand Firebird needs a website with content organized to
> > give a good presentation of itself to the rest of the world. For this
> > purpose a site like Pavels isn't apropriate. Here is why:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/IBDI/message/2554
> >
> I totally disagree. Pavels site (assuming more of the contents
> were there) would be just find. Your criteria for an 'official'
> website are, IMHO pointlessly restrictive.
>
> [...]
> > irritating. In the best interest of Firebird is a website which
> > dispenses with all the gimmicks and concentrates on well structured
> > and informative content.
> >
> I agree.
>
> > Jeff has put up this design comparison page and I have set the domain
> > FirebirdSQL.com to point to it, just to fascilitate the access.
> >
> [...
> snipped discussion of colors, logos etc. As long
> as it is legible, navigable and not hideously ugly, I don't care
> ...]
>
> [...]
> > There are other tasks which actually could well be
> > handled by such an "administrative" unit. One is, that the official
> > site should give some contact information, at least an email address.
> > So there's the question who shall receive this email.
>
> This should not be one person. This should be a firebird mailing list.
> (this is the traditional approach for open source projects. If
> you want to contact the developers, mail the developer mailing list)
> You seem to want to have a firebird 'organization' that is something
> that is like a company but doesn't make money. This is not how
> most open source projects are developed, and I have no desire to
> participate in such an entity.
>
> > For this as
> > well, I would prefer a little team of "trusted members", rather than
> > one single person. This team would not "own" Firebird, but only have
> > some (rather limited) administrative tasks. It would be an interim
> > solution, to be replaced by something more formal (a Firebird
> > Association) in the future.
> Such a group already exists (centered around the 'administrators'
> of the firebird sourceforge project), and I don't believe that
> replacing it with a more formal association is the proper thing
> to do in the near future.
>
> > Being the redactors of FirebirdSQL.org,
> > this team would be the official voice of Firebird.
> I don't believe that 'firebird' has or needs an official voice.
> The firebird group is made up of a number of different individuals
> with different interests. We are in happy cooperation pursuing
> our common goals. Currently, no more is required.
> You seem caught up in the idea that there is (or should be)
> some firebird entity that has some goals of it's own.
> There isn't, and as far as I'm concerned, doesn't need to be.
>
> [...]
> >
> > So, I suggest a team of at least 3 members. Basically the smaller the
> > team, the easier it can work. But I don't know the persons inside
> > Firebird enough to give any recommendation about this.
> You've hit the nail on the head here. Perhaps you should sit
> back and watch until you have some idea of what is actually
> going on.
> > If there are
> > (by chance) 3 peoples who clearly stand behind Firebird and merit
> > this position (again, with competences limited to administrative
> > tasks),
> I don't believe that any more official administration
> is required or proper at this point in time.
>
> > maybe you could somehow arrange to create this team? An
> Who does 'you' refer to here, and how are they going to 'create'
> a team.
>
> [...]
> > What do you think?
> You seem to want to form firebird into something that it
> is not, and should not be.
>
> --
> Reed Mideke
> (official firebird anarchist, speaking in official capacity)
> email: rfm(at)cruzers.com -If that fails: rfm(at)portalofevil.com
>
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